19: Exploring Cultural Bridges with Carlo Pizzati, an International writer living in India.
Understanding the Intersection of Cultures, Politics, and Religions through the lens of an international journalist, writer and lecturer.
📝 Words: 2757 | 🕰️ Estimated Reading time: about 11 mins
Dear Kula Readers,
Today, we bring you a special guest: Carlo Pizzati, journalist, writer, and lecturer. In this delightful interview, we will focus less on the business world to tackle more universal themes, we decided to leverage his culture and literary sensitivity to discuss cultural differences, religions, and politics. We are sure you will be as enchanted by his knowledge and words as we were. By the end of this article, you will surely have learned something new, or at least you'll carry with you doubts and reflections to ponder in the coming days.
Without further ado, here is the interview.
Key Takeaways
🌏 Cultural Connections: India and Italy share many cultural similarities, such as a strong family focus, expressive communication, and a deep appreciation for food.
🛐 Religious Differences: India maintains vibrant spirituality and religious devotion, contrasting with the more secular modern Italian society.
🌆 Economic Disparities: The gap between urban and rural areas in India is widening due to disproportionate investments.
🇮🇳 Nationalism: Nationalism in India has become more religious under the BJP, emphasizing pride in economic growth and tensions with neighboring countries.
🌐 Diaspora Influence: The significant Indian diaspora impacts global business, with many Indians holding prominent positions in major companies.
📉 Political Shifts: Recent election results reflect changes in India's political landscape, impacting business and economic policies.
Carlo Pizzati: writer, journalist, and international lecturer.
Carlo Pizzati is an Italian award-winning multilingual author of ten works of fiction and non-fiction in English and Italian, and a journalist for "La Repubblica" and "La Stampa,” who has been living in India for the past 16 years.
Carlo is a seasoned journalist who has worked for over thirty-seven years for many italian newspapers but chiefly La Repubblica, as an international correspondent from New York, Rome, Mexico City, Buenos Aires and Madrid. He’s covered the Northern Ireland strife, guerrilla war in Colombia, the narcos business in the Andes, illegal immigrant smuggling in Mexico, civil rights battles in Chile, pro-environment militancy in the French atoll of Mururoa, and the GMO battle in Europe and the US. He was editor in chief of the internet portals (Kataweb Spain in Madrid and Virgilio in Milan), as well as executive director of the American Civitella Foundation in New York.
Over the course of his career, Carlo has also been a political talk show host on national tv in Italy, a stringer for the WGBH-BBC ‘PRI–The World’ radio, a contributor to the Associated Press, Vanity Fair (Italy) and GQ.He has lectured at New York University, Columbia University, Yonsei University (Seoul), Università Ca’ Foscari (Venice), Università La Sapienza (Rome).
As a writer, he published ten works of fiction and non-fiction in English and Italian. To cite the most recent ones: in 2022, he has published the Italian novel “Una linea lampeggiante all’orizzonte” (Baldini+Castoldi) and the collection of short stories in English “A History of Objects” (Harper Collins India). In 2020 he published the non-fiction book “La Tigre e il Drone” (which won the Gambrinus Prize 2021). In 2018, harper collins published his memoir in english “Mappillai- An Italian Son-in-Law in India”.
On June 15th, Carlo was also invited to speak about humanity at TEDx Vicenza, where he emphasized the concept that unity is evolution.
We had the honor of meeting him at a great event organized by Care to Action - an Italian NGO committed since 1991 to ensuring access to quality education for more than 1,000 children and youth each year in India. During this event, Carlo spoke about the dire conditions faced by women in some of India's most backward regions.
Carlo lives with his wife near a fishermen’s village in Tamil Nadu, India where he writes his books, features, editorials and political analysis about Asia and more. He’s worked as an adjunct professor teaching communication theory at the Asian College of Journalism in Chennai and in the past he developed a project with his son to produce affordable football shoes for Indian girls.
Cultural Similarities and Differences
What are the most significant cultural similarities and differences between Italy and India?
The cultural similarities between Italy and India are numerous.
Salman Rushdie humorously remarked that Indians are Italians without wine, though now we are also bringing wine to India.
Both countries share refined tastes and an appreciation for luxury. The Italian Constitution, written around the same time as the Indian Constitution after WWII, has many similarities with India’s, including provisions for similar regionalism. In both cultures, family and the maternal figure hold a central role, and there is a justified obsession with food. Indian and Italian cuisines rank among the top five most influential cuisines globally, and people in both countries view food as a crucial aspect of their culture, an element of affection, conviviality, and national pride. Both cultures are characterized by animated gestures and expressive communication by Anglo-Saxon standards.
The neapolitan philosopher Luciano De Crescenzo divided people into "people of love" and "people of freedom," placing both Italians and Indians among the former. Despite being considered Westerners, Italians share more characteristics that they are aware of with Indians rather than with other Europeans.
However, there are also significant differences: **Pasolini,** one of the defining public intellectuals in 20th-century Italian history, influential both as an artist and a political figure, noted that religious devotion is deeply ingrained in the daily lives of Indians, an aspect he found lacking in Italy. According to Pasolini, India has a vibrant and authentic spirituality that permeates society, while in Italy, religion had over the years lost its relevance and depth due to the influence and growing popularity of modernity and capitalism. Tradition in Italy has become increasingly more about family customs rather than deeply felt religious practices.
What are the most common misunderstandings between Europeans and Indians?
One of the most common misunderstandings between Italians and Indians is the Italian hand gesture, which in India means "I'm hungry" while in Italy it means "What do you want?" 🤌🤌
But, more seriously, a frequent and at times frustrating mistake is assuming that, due to physical and cultural similarities, there is a shared mental flexibility between Italians and Indians.
However, Indian bureaucracy has a level of rigidity that dates back even before British colonialism, rooted perhaps in Brahminic rigor in observing rites and rules. Additionally, the system of bribes in India is more guaranteed compared to Italy.
According to my personal experience, Europeans should exercise a lot of patience when doing business in India, this is the key to gaining the trust and respect of Indians: one must not come across as arrogant and pretentious, but be as humble as possible in order to avoid the opposite of the desired effect. It is important to check your own unconscious post-colonial defects…
What impact has economic development had on religion in India? Do you believe there will be a decline similar to that in the West, or are Indian religious roots so deep that they will remain intact?
Economic development does not seem to have had a negative impact on religion in India; quite the opposite. Urbanization and the sense of dislocation created by people leaving the countryside for cities have strengthened religious devotion. People cling to their gods even more strongly to combat the disorientation caused by moving to a more hostile urban environment.
I do not believe that India will experience a decline in religion similar to that in the West. Indian religion has deep roots and addresses many existential questions that Christianity does not satisfactorily cover. The Bhagavad Gita, for example, offers a much more profound and integrated philosophical vision.
Nationalism and Politics
How has nationalism in India changed and intensified in the last 20 years?
Nationalism in India has shifted from secular to religious with the rise of the BJP and the RSS. When I arrived in India in 2008, at the time of the terrorist attack on the Taj Mahal Palace and the Mumbai massacre, I noticed a significant change. These horrible attacks contributed to the rise of parties pitching nationalism as a cohesive force useful in combating terrorism.
Nationalism was further bolstered by pride in India's economic growth but also by tensions with neighboring enemy states like Pakistan and China. However, religious radicalization in nationalism has not taken root as strongly, if at all, in the South, where there is a solid sense of belonging tied to regional languages such as Malayalam, Kannada, Tamil, and Telugu.
How do you think the perception of the West in India has changed under the Modi government? Has the opening of many sectors with the Make-in-India program also translated into greater openness towards foreigners?
Under the Modi government, there is a new pride and a sense of retribution in India. Indians are overcoming the post-colonial sense of inferiority. The reality is that many Indians know Italy better than many Italians know India and in general a lot of Indians know the world better than many Westerners, as Indian immigrants, business persons and executives are present almost everywhere.
The Indian diaspora is indeed significant. According to the World Migration Report 2024, India remains the top country of origin for migration flows. Additionally, it leads in remittances, with a notable gap compared to the second, Mexico.
How the top ten Remittance recipients have shifted since 2000
Data from the Ministry of External Affairs of India count a whopping 35 million Overseas Indians, divided into 16 million Non-Resident Indians (NRIs) and 19 million Persons of Indian Origin (PIOs). The US, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Malaysia, Myanmar, the UK, Sri Lanka, South Africa, and Canada each host an Indian diasporic population of at least one million.
This international presence is not only reflected in migration flows but also in the successful careers of many Indians in the West. It is no coincidence that many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are of Indian origin. Notable examples include Satya Nadella (Microsoft), Sundar Pichai (Google & Alphabet), Vasant Narasimhan (Novartis AG), Shantanu Narayen (Adobe), and Arvind Krishna (IBM). Carlo Pizzati wrote a wonderful article on the "Intelligence of need" where he discussed the growing presence of people of Indian origin at the top of various sectors in the global economic, cultural, and scientific fields.
I’ll leave you the link here 👉 https://www.ilpost.it/carlopizzati/2020/12/17/lintelligenza-del-bisogno-storie-di-indiani-che-conquistano-i-vertici-globali/
To conclude, there is a greater sense of equality towards the West, which can be healthy for everyone. Many Indian CEOs are appreciated for their loyalty and integrity. The opening of many sectors with the Make-in-India program has led to greater openness towards foreigners, but there is also a new national pride that shapes these interactions.
Economy and Investments
What are the main differences between rural economies and Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 cities in India?
The primary difference, as demonstrated by the electoral results of June 2024, is that there are more state investments in cities and fewer in rural economies.
A 2019 report by Mint, using data from CMIE, indicates that investment disparity in India has been increasing since 2006. Nearly all the increase in investment activity in the state has been driven by investments in transport services, construction, and real estate. This disparity creates significant infrastructural inequalities, widening the gap between more developed and urbanized areas and rural regions.
Additionally, this difference is even more pronounced in terms of FDI. Just three Indian States: Maharashtra, Karnataka, and Gujarat, became the destination of 70% of the $70.9 billion foreign investment between April 2022 and March 2023.
This disparity in investments leads to increased economic and social inequalities, fueling discontent in the countryside, as seen in the repeated farmer protests in February, demanding a Minimum Support Price for all crops and measures to combat inflation.
Modi's policies have generally favored the development of the country's richer, more advanced, and urbanized areas. Despite intentions to reform and strengthen the agricultural sector, policies supporting the poorer population have been insufficient to quell discontent. It is important to remember that over 40% of the population is employed in agriculture, representing a significant portion of the country.
India is not Calcutta and Bombay; India lives in her seven hundred thousand villages. - Mahatma Gandhi
What are the cultural peculiarities of Tamil Nadu, and how do they influence business implications in the region?
In my eyes as someone who lives here Tamil Nadu is characterized by a sense of sweetness, slowness, and languor among its people, regardless of age or gender. There is a strong Dravidian pride connected to the Tamil language, one of the world's oldest languages, with a rich literary and poetic tradition. Feminism is another distinctive feature, with a mother goddess cult predating Hindu rites, granting women a certain empowerment also thanks to the work of philosopher-politician Peryiar in the 1930s.
However, doing business in Tamil Nadu presents challenges, including issues with bribes and insufficient infrastructure. For example, the East Coast Road (ECR) connecting Chennai to Pondicherry is still unable to handle safely and appropriately the traffic.
In light of the recent election results, can we talk about a triumph of democracy in India? What are the business/economy consequences of this results?
We can rephrase it as the resilience of democracy in India.
Despite suspicions regarding Electronic Voting Machines, there have been no significant complaints. However, there were very undemocratic behaviors during the pre-election period that need to be addressed.
The BJP’s weakening within the right wing national democratic alliance government coalition in its third term has not be well received from a business perspective, as evidenced by the financial markets' reaction to the electoral results. This was an impulsive reaction soon corrected and recovered by the markets. The concern is that a weaker BJP within the coalition could slow down the promised programs of infrastructure growth. But there’s another focal point: in the long run, a more equitable distribution of the benefits of economic growth would be beneficial for everyone. Large conglomerates and monopolies do not function optimally, and to that end necessary mediation within the governing coalition and a strengthened opposition will be essential.
Carlo refers to the 8% drop in the Nifty 50 on June 4th, following the official election results. Modi, with his slogan “Ab ki baar, 400 paar,” aimed to secure more than 400 seats in parliament. However, the election results saw him winning only 240 seats, fewer than in his previous two governments and significantly below the parliamentary majority threshold of 272.
This impacted the markets, which, after exit polls predicted a sweeping victory for the BJP, saw the Nifty 50 reach a historic high in anticipation. On June 4th, however, the index plummeted by nearly ten percentage points following the election outcome, reflecting the reduced standing of the BJP and Modi. In the following days, the index recovered significantly, surpassing its previous high, demonstrating the financial markets' confidence in India.
Ethics, Philosophy, Gender Differences, and Curiosities
What is the status of women in present-day India? How far are we from achieving gender equality?
The Me Too movement in Indian universities and society has been stronger and achieved more results than in Italy, indicating a significant change, but the issues reemerge after university.
In elite environments, women seem to face less frequently and with less vehemence the same injustices as those experienced in rural contexts. However, once out of university and elite contexts, the challenges resurface with all their might. Even elite environments are not exempt from these phenomena.
Female students might face unwanted arranged marriages like some Indian women do. I do not believe that gender equality has been achieved anywhere in the world, and in India, the journey is still very long. Universities are a starting point, but the path to gender equality is full of obstacles. In India there are now less women in parliament and in the national workforce compared to 10 years ago.
Taking extreme individualistic capitalism and the Chinese model (or a purely socialist model) as extremes, where would you classify current India?
Contemporary India finds itself in an intermediate position between extreme individualistic capitalism and pure socialism.
Although India is a socialist republic, the phenomenon of socialism is too recent to have deeply impacted the Indian mentality. However, socialism has found fertile ground in Asia due to the philosophical foundations of Confucianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism, which promote a sense of collectivist approach to daily live and expose the traps of ego and individualism. The concept of dharma* is central to understanding how Indians excel individually despite the inherent collectivism in their culture.
Why are Western ethics and philosophy often considered superior? How is this perceived in India?
Western ethics and philosophy are perhaps considered superior only by some Westerners, not by most Indians. This is a weakness of some Westerners, a side effect of a mindset that focuses on competition and always creates levels and rankings. In the end, we are still casteist ourselves. In India, Western ethics and philosophy are not perceived as superior. India has a rich philosophical tradition that embraces ethical and social values similar to those of the West.
Reflections and Conclusions
Business and culture are closely intertwined, so understanding a country's culture can significantly enhance business success. This interview provided valuable insights into Indian culture, drawing comparisons with Italian culture, and most importantly, evaluating the impact of socio-economic factors on the business environment.
We learned a lot from this interview, and many of Carlo's answers were enlightening. We sincerely hope you enjoyed this new type of article. While this won't be a recurring format, as we are more accustomed to and skilled at covering economic topics, if you particularly enjoyed this, we will consider bringing in more guests with similar profiles in the future.
Let us know in the comments!
*dharma: "Dharma" is a key concept in Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism, referring to the moral and ethical duties and responsibilities that guide an individual's conduct. It encompasses the principles of law, order, harmony, and truth, and varies according to one's class, caste, gender, and age. In a broader sense, dharma represents the cosmic law that upholds and sustains the universe.
Sources:
ET Money India Investment Report 2020: This report highlights trends in Indian investment, noting increased participation by millennials, a rise in female investors, and a shift from top cities to smaller towns and rural areas.
India Urbanization Map: This map provides a visual representation of urbanization rates across India, detailing the varying degrees of urban development and population distribution.
McKinsey Report on Urban Awakening in India: This report delves into the rapid urbanization in India, its economic implications, and strategies for sustainable urban growth.
World Bank Agricultural Employment Data: This data provides insights into the percentage of India's workforce employed in agriculture, reflecting changes over time and its impact on the economy.
BBC News Article: This article discusses why India's Modi failed to win outright majority.
S&P CNX Nifty Index: This page offers real-time updates and analysis of the S&P CNX Nifty Index, an indicator of the performance of the top 50 companies listed on the National Stock Exchange of India.
Vajiram and Ravi on Indian Diaspora: This guide provides an overview of the Indian diaspora, exploring its historical roots, current demographics, and socio-economic impact.
World Migration Report 2024: This interactive report by IOM covers global migration trends, with specific insights into the movement patterns and demographics of Indian migrants.
MEA Report on Overseas Indians: This report from the Ministry of External Affairs details the population distribution, demographic trends, and socio-economic contributions of Indians living abroad.
Livemint Article on India's Investment Evolution: This article traces the changes in investment patterns in India over the past two decades, highlighting shifts in regional investment hotspots and key growth areas.
Visual Capitalist on India's FDI Inflows: This visualization details the trends and sources of Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) in India, illustrating the country's growing attractiveness as an investment destination.
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Very interesting! Thanks Francesco